NF4 a problémy s HDD s NCQ

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » stř 1. bře 2006, 23:17

http://www.svethardware.cz/art_doc-18D226FB44F8FB16C12571230069BEAC.html

Pište sem Vaše zkušenosti, co chodí a co ne.

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » stř 8. bře 2006, 09:35

Co se týče Seagatů, tak třeba zde

After a three months, fighting with MSI and ASUS problems with nVidia Chipsets the SATA II drive with 3 G/bps speed and NCQ (Native Command Queuing). I have the cause at lest for most/some of the problems.

I now have the latest SATA II drives with all the newest features up and running on ASUS A8N-E, MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum and MSI Diamond Plus just using currently listed RAID Drives for all three boards.

The problem is an industry problem cause by the rush to market of new technology growing faster than equipment standards. The Manager of Seagate Tech Support Department gave the actual cause of the problem to me. Maxtor’s firmware problem I have not been able to find out exactly what it was, heard many second guess of causes, but not official word as to the cause. But, I think it is related.

The problem is as features were added to the new SATA II drives the initialization time of the drive increased and the drives do not respond until their initialize is completed. Soon, the respond time of the drives exceeded the respond time out limits of system BIOS and Windows and other software, when this happens the system hangs or crashes.

The problem is not limited to just Seagate and Maxtor drives, so, if you are having problem that could be caused by the responds time of the your hard drive check with your drives tech support because all that’s required to fix it is a firmware upgrade. Problem is still must companies are unaware of the problem or the information about problem has never got down to the first line support personnel.

Here is a link to my full article on my three months reserach spent on the problem, which do to a monitor of this forum who make fun of the article and said it was not wroth posting. When I asked him his advance as where to it should be postted on the MSI Forum. http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38656

His remarks hurt me deeply as I have a brain disorder that impairs my language skills, but I do what best I can and I cancelled my membership in the Forum and listed the article on another forum, where its received good reviews.

I cooled off a little and I am back on my favorite User Forum, and thats why I am listed as a newbie again.

Read the full article and let me know what you think.

a podobný článek je i tady

As some regulars on MSI and ASUS Forums may know or may not even be aware of my on going fight with MSI and other motherboard manufactures. About problems with advanced SATA II Drives and there incompatibility problems with what I thought were problems with nVidia RAID Controller do to the increased Date Transfer Rate of the newest SATA II Drives.

Will as it has turned out what I thought was a whole problem is a very small part of the overall problem that involves most or part of all of the Personal/Deck Top computer industry.

This is problem and poor Tech Support from ASUS is one of the reasons I am no long user of ASUS Motherboards and purchased my first MSI motherboard a K8N Neo4 Platinum (MS-7125). This was back in November of 2005.

Nevertheless, I guess that you could say I found the MSI MS-7125 had the very same problems. As the ASUS and MSI, motherboards used the same nVidia Chipsets. I without farther research on the problem, I assumed it was a problem with nVidia Chipset which was the problem; however, it was really just part of a problem that is industry wide as farther research showed.

What caused me to focus most of my attention on the nVidia Chipset as being the real problem was that MSI Tech support produced a Beta BIOS and 32-bit RAID driver that worked with the drives? They farther stated that they were working with nVidia on the problem; this is an actual quote form a message from MSI Support. My English is bad, but not that bad so, this statement did not come from some low level Tech Support person, of the correspondence I have had with MSI Support did not have this type of bad sentence structure.

“Attached is the driver for 32bit Windows XP OS, please kindly use this driver under 32bit OS since we have tested and works.
For the 64bit driver, we have informed nVidia about it and will provide a fix soon, thanks.”

Now, comes part that everyone who as been struggling with system problems, which are here today gone tomorrow and back the next day or just flat with you all the time and are using SATA II drives and this can include, the first SATA II drives manufactured to the newest and latest one produced. It is just that the problem get worse with the newer the drive the more features the drives have more problems and it’s the number of features the new SATA II drive have, which causes the problem.

Here is where the problem starts, the more features the drives have the more time it takes the drive to initialize. When that time exceeds the time, the BIOS Programmer allows a drive to respond, the BIOS reports no drive present. That little problem sound familiar to anyone and an overload power with just slightly different +12V with each boot an a BIOS time out that just not quit being meet and one boot no drive detected next boot it is drive is detected, again sound familiar to anyone. Windows does not detect drive on installation problem, but BIOS detect the drive, manufactures diagnostic detects drive and gives a drive tests that produces no errors. Windows is very meticulous about hardware interface timing as far as I know it drive responds time is shorter than most Diagnostic Tests and the BIOS, sure explain a lot of problem reported on many User Forums.

Therefore, the problem is, but not cased by, time it takes for the new SATA II drives to initialize and the fact that the industry has no standard for this drive initialization time. Big oops by the computer industry, of all the communications protocols that exist there seams to be none for drive interfacing at lest I have not been able to find one. Yes, there are protocols for drive communications in hundreds of different communications protocol systems and they all have the timing and time out specifications, but none that deal with the time it stood take a drive to respond. I could be wrong about this, because have only looked at something like 0.001% of the documentation on the subject, because there must be hundreds of thousands of pages on the subject and I got better things to do.

Remember I said this problem was industry wide; well that industry includes you and me that is right the end user and purchaser of the SATA II Drives. Well you all know if you are follower of the problems on User Forums a lot of users have Boot problem that are drive related, Windows startup that are drive related and problem with system coming out of standby or specially Hibernation all of these can be cause by a drive respond time problem. I am not saying all of the problem could be, but I have not seen talk on the User Forms or industry new releases that have even mentioned it.

Any of the these problem the sound little like a problem that hits close to home and what was the fix for a lot of the problem, maybe not all, but many of the were fixed with replacing the power supply with one that had a higher current rating on the on the +12V Rails. The effect of a low +12V output from the power supply during periods of high +12V demand is a lower +12 Volts. The effect of a lower +12V on a Hard Drive is a longer spin up time and the drive does not complete initialization until spin-up is been completed, so, replacing the power supply helped the Drive spin up faster just making the drive respond time more stably helped in some cases, but not all to prevent such system crashes.

Now, comes the industries tie in to the problem, which is really the problem as far as you and I the end user are concerned. The reason being the real reason for the problem is the industry has know about the problem sense at lest med November of 2005 and if any word was ever disseminated directly to the end user you and me, I am sure I would have heard about in some way by now. Especially with as much contact as I have had with different company, official tech supports and all the User Forms I read. The Hard Drive manufactures do what the manufactures do. The customer demands high performance for the product and the HD manufactures gives it by adding features that allow their drives to deliver data at a faster and faster rates. However, all the new features their adding to the drives increase initialization time.

There is no industry standard on maximum initialization time so, no problem, wrong there is no standard but all BIOS’s and Operating Systems have to have built in time limits for a drive to respond if they did not a bad drive would hang the system. The BIOS and Operating Systems respond time outs were and are based on the average respond time of older none SATA drives.
Therefore, you have more that likely guessed over time, as the SATA II drives initialization times got longer the systems started having problems. As there is, at lest that I know of, no standard respond delay time so the first systems effected were those system with shorts response delay time outs.

Therefore, as it is really an industry problem, but the hard drive manufactures are the ones stuck fixing the problem by having to come up with new firmware for there drives to shorten there drives initialization time.

This type problem is not unusual, but it the way in which the industry handled the problem shows a complete disregard for the customers. In addition, it proves to me that most of the industries technical support programs are nothing but lip service to the public. We all know that most companies that have User Forums do not have official monitors. This in no way should reflect on the volunteer monitors on the forums as must are doing a good job. Because if the companies really wanted the form to proved a real service. They would know about such problems, by reading the Forums, and publish a list of known problems with their products and status reports on the work they are doing on those problems.

Does this problem effect you system. If you have some of the newest SATAII Drive and they are not causing you problems, it is because they were manufactured after the manufacture became aware of the problem and upgraded firmware was installed at the factory. If you are using SATA II drives, Manufacture of the drives makes no difference and have any instability problems.

Note: Most of the SATA II drive can cause the problem, but not all of them, the ones with both 3 G/bps transfer speed and NCQ (Native Command Queuing) are one that are causing most of the problem now, because they usually have all the new feature now included in the newest SATA II specification.

I would contact the drive manufactures Technical Support and especially if your drives are involved with what could be industries initialization delay time length problems. Include the part number and firmware version numbers, give detail description of your problem include very detailed of your problem. This may or may not get you the correct or even and answer, because as I have found out the first level of a company technical personnel do not have the knowledge or the information to be able to answer your question.

The facts on the problem started to come to light for me, when MSI and Seagate were both saying the problem was with each others product. Well, I sent a E-mail to Seagate Technical Support which is more than likely still etched on their monitors. In less than two hours I received an E-mail form the Seagate Tech Support stating the problem had been send to and other department for evaluation. But 5 minute before that e-mail the I received a personal e-mail from the head on the Seagate Technical Support department requesting the Serial Number and Part Number of all my Seagate drives, so they could send me upgraded Firmware for my Seagate drives. An hour or hour half later I received a personal phone call for the head on the Seagate Technical Support department and we had a long talk and that is where I got some of the information which added to what I had learned over the last three months to compile my message to you about. During the phone call with him, I received an E-mail with attached files with everything I need to upgrade the firmware on all of my Seagate Drives.

I have successfully upgraded all my Seagate drives. Then I used four in a RAID 0 array and install Windows XP Pro 64 Edition with current nVidia RAID Drivers on an ASUS A8N-E motherboard and Windows Installation went smoothly and the system is running rock solid with no instability and with fast error free cold boots and restarts all with default BIOS setting except for enabling NVRAID. I have never been able to get Windows 64 to install on that motherboard before.

The head of the Seagate was extremely up set with his people because he had notified all his personnel about the problem months ago. This is why if you contact you drives manufacture your may get the correct answer and you may not. I have dealt with Seagate Tech Support for many years now and respected them highly and they are one of the reasons most all my drives are Seagate that I have purchased unless the person I am building a system for specifies something else.

Citace je tady proto, jelikož na zahraničních fórech dochází "samovolně" k mazání threadů na tohle téma - nVidia, Seagate popř. jiní výrobci HDD to chtějí za každou cenu ututlat.

_Geralt · Příspěvek od **_Geralt** » stř 8. bře 2006, 09:46

Epox 9NPA+ ultra a Hitachi T7K250 160GB (sataII, NCQ zapnute), WinXP_SP2_nLited, Shit edition ovladace

a diky bohu zatim behem 4 mesicu provozu zadny problem... instalace systemu, boot, kopirovani, zadna ztrata dat
Ale cela ta situace me trochu desi a jen cekam, kdy neco prijde
BTW 1 problemek bych mel: pod W2kSP4 ovladace 6.66 mi HDtach hlasil randonm access 12.5-7ms a ted na XP (zkouseny ruzne ovladace) najednou 13.3-5ms...co se deje??

/edit/ jeste si dovolim doplnit verzi firmware (dle HDtune): V43OA80A

Příspěvek od **PET5** » stř 8. bře 2006, 10:42

Já používám Hitachi Deskstar T7K250, rozhraní SATA II.
Drobné problémy mám někdy při spuštění PC, kdy při zaváděcí obrazovce pouze trvale slabě svítí kontrolka HD (normálně svítí silněji a poblikává), a spouštění je velice dlouhé, někdy dokonce zamrzne. Windows pravděpodobně hledají nějaké neexistující zařízení.
Včera jsem aplikoval utilitu bootvis a startování se zlepšilo. Zatím však nemám vyzkoušeno startování po delším vypnutí, takže nemohu potvrdit zda došlo opravdu k nápravě.

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » stř 8. bře 2006, 12:15

U mě: MSI K8N Neo SLI se Seagaty 160GB 7200.9 SATA v RAIDu 0 naprosto bez problémů, ale ty samé HDD s deskou MSI K8N Neo4 FI ani ťuk.

Matius · Příspěvek od **Matius** » stř 8. bře 2006, 19:44

ja mám DFI LanParty Ultra + Hitachi SATAII 250 GB a nemal som žiadne problémy. Až posledný 3 týždne mi trvá boot cca 4 minúty. Skúšal som aj rôzna ovládače a nič...

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » stř 8. bře 2006, 22:00

Matius píše:....Až posledný 3 týždne mi trvá boot cca 4 minúty....

Kód: Vybrat vše

http://www.svethardware.cz/disc_doc-N18D226FB44F8FB16C12571230069BEAC.html

Kód: Vybrat vše

http://www.svethardware.cz/art_doc-CE10106D00584F21C125710C007675B9.html

sill · Příspěvek od **sill** » čtv 9. bře 2006, 20:01

mam desku Asus p5nd2 - sli ( nforce4 - sli intel edition ) hdd - Matrox Diamond max 10 sata300 zatim vše běhá správně

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » pát 10. bře 2006, 13:14

Dnes v 9 hod. jsem kontaktoval support Seagatu s problémem na NF4+NCQ a do 60 min. mě poslal Seagate nový firmware, který toto řeší.

Hello,

Lets update the firmware on the drive and see if this will take care of
this issue.

The firmware I am sending is only for the serial number that you sent us.
Do not apply to any other drives unless the serial number is verified
through Seagate. Create a separate diskette for the firmware that you will
applied to the hard drive.

Basic instructions:
Create a DOS bootable floppy
Extract all files to a separate floppy
Use a standard desktop PC with an integrated SATA controller, or a basic
SATA add-in controller like a Promise SATA150-TX2.
Disconnect all PATA or SATA devices from the system, except the device
needing the firmware update.
Boot the system using the update floppy.
Run the *.bat file

(See attached file: ST3160812AS_xLS_3.AAE.zip)

Best regards,

Stefan M.
Seagate Technical Support

Klobouk dolů před Seagatem, takto nějak si představuji profesionální podporu PC komponent.

Pokud by měl někdo zájem o nový firmware na ST3160812AS 160GB - napište to sem.

_Geralt · Příspěvek od **_Geralt** » pát 10. bře 2006, 16:17

tak jsem preci jen narazil na problem s Hitachi T7K250, nastesti

ne u sebe, ale na sestave s Gigabytem K8NE s NF4-4x, boot trva nekolik minut, coz uzivatel nevydrzi a komp restartuje, na 2. pokus je vse v poradku...
nezkousel nekdo kontaktovat primo Hitachi nebo nahravat jinou verzi firmwaru?

Seagate opravdu prekvapil, mam tu jejich BarcuIV 40GB... ze by pristi disk byl opet od nich? akorat by mohli trochu zrychlit

misko903 · Příspěvek od **misko903** » pát 10. bře 2006, 16:38

mne tiez dlho bootuje XP, naprv som myslel ze je to fragmentaciou suborov...

mam disk Seagate ST3200826AS (200 GB SATA I, 8MB cache) fw 3.03
aj v SMARTe to vypisuje chyby CRC a podobne veci. moze to byt tym?

kde presne si pisal o ten firmware? ja by som si tiez rad dal novy... dufam ze sa to nim vyriesi

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » pát 10. bře 2006, 18:17

misko903 píše:kde presne si pisal o ten firmware?

Kód: Vybrat vše

http://www.seagate.com/support/email/index.html

l_iNu$ · Příspěvek od **l_iNu$** » pát 10. bře 2006, 19:07

Ja mam K8N SLI Platinum mel sem Seagate 7200.7 120GB SATAI a pri zapnutem NCQ trval BOOT winXP dlouho. Ted mam Hitachi T7K250 250GB SATAII a se zapnutym i vypnutym NCQ je boot time rychly, ale nevim obacs je ten boottime divny.

misko903 · Příspěvek od **misko903** » pát 10. bře 2006, 19:13

okej, dik. poslal som im pozdrav

dufam ze mi poslu novy fw.

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » pát 10. bře 2006, 22:14

Na žádost několika userů sem dávám odkaz na firmware pro: ST3160812AS (7200.9 SATA, 8MB cache, 7200rpm, 160GB) - je to pouze pro tento typ HDD - heslo k archívu přes SZ.

Kód: Vybrat vše

http://download.nforce.cz/seagate_ncq_fw.rar

misko903 píše:...SMARTe to vypisuje chyby CRC a podobne veci. moze to byt tym?

Může. Ale Ty máš HDD 200GB -> ten FW bude jiný, než je můj odkaz !!! .

misko903 · Příspěvek od **misko903** » pát 10. bře 2006, 23:47

no jasne, zaklad je trafit znacku a typ

to by som si dal, aby som tam dal tvoj fw

Hugo · Příspěvek od **Hugo** » sob 11. bře 2006, 18:32

ma niekto najnovsi firmware k Hitachi T7K250 160GB (HDT722516DLA380). malo by ist o V43OA91A.

misko903 · Příspěvek od **misko903** » sob 11. bře 2006, 19:03

odpisali mi toto:

Seagate doesn't have access to any firmware for this hard drive. There
aren't any known issues with running this hard drive on the nVidia chipset
you mention.

I would suggest making sure you are up to date on the latest drivers, and
BIOS for the controller/chip set. This should hopefully resolve any
performance issues you are experiencing.

Bryce S.
Seagate Technical Support

takze vraj moj disk funguje tak ako ma... zeby to tak dlho startovalo niekedy fakt kvoli tej fragmentacii? sa mi nezda... co myslite, otravovat ix este raz?

_Geralt · Příspěvek od **_Geralt** » sob 11. bře 2006, 19:55

Hugo píše:ma niekto najnovsi firmware k Hitachi T7K250 160GB (HDT722516DLA380). malo by ist o V43OA91A.

vcera jsem psal na tech. podporu, uvidime, zda a jak odpovi... nechvaji si na odpoved 2 business dny, tak snad v utery/stredu se neceho dockam
btw mas nejake problemy? jak jsem psal vyse, vim o problemu na Gigabytu s NF4-4x, firmware je V43OA80A

Shit · Příspěvek od **Shit** » sob 11. bře 2006, 22:19

misko903 píše:....

Uvedl jsi s/n toho HDD? Možná jsem kápnul na toho správnýho člověka - nevím.
Máš tam NV chipset drivery 6.70? (Nejlépe "Shit" edition)

Kód: Vybrat vše

http://download.nforce.cz/nForce4_amd_6.70_winxp2k_international.exe

NF4 a problémy s HDD s NCQ

NF4 a problémy s HDD s NCQ

firmware

Re: firmware